Full show notes: https://probatemastery.com/vacant-property-leads-and-probate-lead-generation
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GUIDE: How to get Probate Real Estate Leads From Courthouse or Online https://probatemastery.com/probate-real-estate-leads-companies-reviewed-online/
In this weekly coaching session, probate real estate agents and investors dive into vacant property leads and probate marketing. You'll hear how Shari is getting leads through inbound marketing and send-outs through her LionDesk CRM. You’ll hear Erik and Bill discuss why vacant property lists are great lead lists for investors with a probate specialization. The group also shares advice for building business equity as a newly certified probate specialist OR a seasoned probate expert.
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0:00 Introductions and Announcements
3:33 3 Keys to Thrive in a Real Estate Recession
11:16 Business Insurance and SBA Loans for Real Estate Business
15:28 What should I do first to build my probate business?
21:56 Cold call rejection: The numbers game mindset
28:23 3-step process for handling probate cold call objections
34:45 My probate marketing works! Content and Consistency with Shari Capers
45:25 Probate and vacant property leads are MOTIVATED sellers
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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Probate Mastery Alumni Mastermind Call and the Estate Professionals mastermind weekly call, Chad Corbett's Coaching Program. I'm Bill Gross and we host this call every Tuesday at noonPacific time, 3:
00 PM Eastern. We also live stream it. I also record it and put it onto a YouTube channel and website. this is for real estate professionals who are looking to build their business in real estate, whether an investor, wholesaler or a real estate agent. We get together to talk about how to build our income as well as how to build our long-term wealth and equity. and the purpose of call, you know, I had a, a chance to talk to Chad yesterday actually. We're kind of game planning of the upcoming year and, and where is this call fit and so on. And it was, it is interesting because, just to clarify, I'm just a practitioner like you, I mean, I'm a real estate broker in Los Angeles. I have a great business. I have Four pending escrows. I got two listings. Need more listings, always need more. But that's my business. I, I don't really get paid to coach. I do have a couple products I get a little bit, but to be honest, it's just more fun money and to watch how the system works. My real business is selling houses and building my team of real estate agents across the country. And what I reaffirmed with Chad was my ability to say to you, if this isn't right for you to spend money on data or mailing, that I could tell you that cuz we're not selling data, we're not selling mailing. We're selling that if you help enough other people, you can achieve anything you want in real estate. That's what I'm gonna sell you on today and how to get there. When you start off, you have to invest a combination of time or money. Now most people, when they're starting a relaunch, you don't have access money to invest. And also most programs for real estate agents and investors, Underestimate the true cost or time to get your return. You know, if you're gonna start a a probate mailing program and mail out postcards, most people are honest, will say it's gonna take three to six postcards, minimum or letters, and more likely 12 months to start seeing return on your investment. The average lead in a real estate campaign comes in about two years. And so you'd have to mail out three to six times each person and make phone calls. Most people don't have the money to wait there when they're starting out. And so it's important that we look at the opportunities where we can invest our time to convert that into success and leverage that. Or if we have an ongoing business, leverage our current business to get more to expand. And how do we do that? That's why we're here, is to share ideas that work. Now, if you have the money to invest in the data, great. And if you have the money to invest in postcards fantastic. Let's talk about how to be successful with that. But for most people, starting out, I have the courage and the opportunity to tell you the truth, which is most people need to learn how to talk on the phone to prospects before they start investing money behind it. Because the money you spend normally generates leads you get to get on the phone to convert. I also wanna share with you before we get started, and, and the purpose of this call is be interactive. So I'd love for you to put in a chat box if you're an investor or a wholesaler or a realtor and what state you're in. And even better put your full name contact info. So if somebody had to do business with you, they can reach out and do business with you. So feel free to put that if you're watching live on the Zoom call in the chat box. Love to have you. I wanna share with you three thoughts from my coach. My, my motivational business coach is Grant Cardone. Chad's my probate coach. But grant Cardone came across years ago, and while at first I found a style, a little off-putting, I found his message very much on point with where I need to be. And so he put out a post the other day. He talked about with a change in the economy, they're entering into a period of, would be predicted as a recession nationally. And I think that's true. I think you're gonna see overall a recession will be a one or two quarters of reduced growth a negative growth. And I think also in real estate, we're gonna find not a crash, but a recession in the industry in that about 30% of those people who are full in the business are gonna leave because of a lack of business sells you down 30%. And that's gonna hurt the bottom half much harder than the top half. . And so for me, I've been in this business 36 years. It's not about will I survive, it's what do I need to do to thrive in this market for the future? And he gave us three thoughts to think about that are key steps that you need to put in your business, whether it be probate or regular real estate that I think are really on point to what we talk about. So I wanted to share those before we get started and ask questions. Point number one was discipline. In the last market for the last year or two, I've often said a monkey could sell the house. You could give a monkey a billboard list with me, put 'em on Wilshire Boulevard in Los Angeles, somebody would choose them to sell the house. Because the realtors are so busy, they go, oh wow, there's a sign. The monkey must know something. Let's call and ask him or her. But that's not gonna happen going forward. But you're gonna be disciplined and I, I'm catching myself. Discipline on, for example, on listing servicing, normally I would be updating my client every single week on all the key metrics of marketing their listing, so that if they wanna overprice a property within the 30 days, a price reduction is almost automatic. That's because the discipline of doing the work. I've been a little lazy, and when I call a this morning, it was not as comfortable as as normal. Though my numbers are right and it was time to reduce the price, and I'd done all the work. I just hadn't communicated with them well, I've earned a little bit of juice from my client, so they let this one go. But it's a reminder to me. The discipline of selling property requires weekly contact with our clients, with the numbers and the data to keep them informed so that if we need to reduce the price, we've already preset that. But the discipline of doing business development every single day, it's hard. I gotta tell you today was tough. I worked yesterday, half a day, Monday, being near year's day observed. I didn't work during the C football game, but the last week or or so, I've worked pretty consistently, but I even noticed myself dropping off a bit, my intensity. And today I was here ready to go eight o'clock. And getting back into rhythm is challenging, but that's gonna be the key, is the discipline of whatever it is in your business. And for me, it's business development. From eight o'clock to 12 o'clock, I have to find people either who need to sell a house and choose me or people who know people who need to sell a house and refer them to me. So what's your daily discipline? Get on that and that will pull you through this period of time. Number two is the new rules of the market rules and agents and investors are gonna be bombarded with people who can't make it in this market. What they did worked two years ago and a little bit a year ago, and they're all gonna tell you how they have a story, why they took time off last year, family health, whatever it is. But now they wanna come back and be a coach or trainer or superstar telling you what you need to do to build your business, and they're gonna tell you what they did that no longer works. The rules have changed of our business now. I think that rules have gone back to what I would call basic fundamentals in that you have to use a football analogy. You know, there's fancy football with all kinds of motions and fast, you know, fancy plays and all kinds of movement. There's also this in the same game where you just have to line up against the other guy and beat him, beat the guy across the line. I would call that old school football, I think in real estate. we've gotten out of that and overemphasized, perhaps technology and systems. And we've deemphasized importance of talking to people, listening to people communicating and writing effectively to our customers. So the new rules game and what are they are for your business, what are the new rules? Makes you follow the new rules. And number three is you can only do what works. Because if you're, I'm doing well and I'm trimming the fat because I want extra money to throw like gasoline on the new fire. But if you're not doing well, you gotta trim the fat. You can't do what you've been doing because you've been doing it. You can only do what works and what works will be a smaller subset and the margins will be smaller in a more competitive market. So you have to really double down on what's working and really avoid what's not. Now I, I know those are generalities, so we could talk about that. But those are the principles, the lens through which we need to look at our business. We've gotta be disciplined more so now than the past. We have to learn the new rules or the rules appropriate for this market, not the rules for the last market. I had a real estate agent asked me on Thursday or Friday, you know, she's done well, but then she had a bad year. She wants to keep her business. She called me about getting started probate. We walked through her business and I told her what she needed to do. Now this was a free call, and she said, well, I was looking more for a more shotgun approach to get my business going. And I know what she really meant was, I just really wanna buy data and then mail out postcards and get two listings. Can't you just show me how to do that? And the answer is no. I, I don't think you really can do that. I don't think that's really an option today. I know the companies will sell you that dream, but I think it takes more than that just. Mailing out postcards and waiting for the phone to ring. It's more than that. Now, can you mail postcards and then make phone calls away? Wait for the phone to ring? Sure. I think Larry talked about that on last week's call. Should you make phone calls? Yeah. Should you also mail out if it makes sense economically. But I'm gonna tell you, you have to work on what works in this market and use those lenses to affect your business. Okay. I've talked quite a bit. I see a bunch of you. I see a bunch of you putting your contact information. Thank you so much. Look forward to sharing with you guys and networking with you. I know personally I've had referrals outbound the last 90 days in three or four different states. I'm always looking to get more people. I also like to meet you and talk to you rather than just send out blindly. And then I love somebody put there. They love this. Return to the basics. Yeah, I, you know, the truth is, I'll tell you this about me, whether you like it or not, that's where we're headed. I'm fine with it either way. And, and I, and I'll say there are a lot of people, we have to be clear about this. Who sh who need to get the decision to get outta this business quickly and get into something else. And I'm okay escorting them onto the next thing out of mercy and out of respect. I'm not here to gloat over them leaving, but the sooner they get onto something that's productive, the better. Don't pretend it's working. Don't come in this call pretend that you're making a lot of money and not, I've got my challenges. I need to make more money this year for the life that I want and achieve my goals. I'm on a hunt for more listings. I'm on a hunt for more listing referrals. No make no mistake, mistake about it. And this one listing hasn't sold and this one's dragging out a little bit. I mean, that's just, that's life where I'm working hard every day. I don't pretend as though it's that it's all rainbow and unicorns for me either. I don't think it's for anybody right now. It's not gonna be for the next 90 days, but if we work hard on our disciplines, we will follow the rules and only do what's productive. All of us can be successful together and pull each other along. Okay, that's my soapbox for today. 12 minutes into it. , this is supposed to be interactive, so if you have a question, unmute yourself, raise your hand, put it in the chat box. I'd love to make this as interactive as possible. I love when you agree with me. I'm finally disagreeing with me. Let's have a discussion. If you think I'm wrong jump right in here. Here's ShaZam's iPad. He's gonna tell us Oh, how I'm wrong. ShaZam what's up? Hey, how you doing? Good. So I gotta change that. My name is Shaun from New Jersey. I have a question. I just started a company and it's for like basically under the guidelines of consulting. Do I have to have business insurance and is if I don't, is it okay to just have a minor policy anyway? I mean, I don't know what it would be covering, but. How do you guys do well for everybody, whether you're an investor, wholesaler, or a real estate agent. The question's always, you know, what do you need it for? So, for example, I got an SBA loan. The government was offering money at 2.75%. That's like free money in my book, but they require a certain type of insurance, so I had to have it. Some types of businesses to do business with you will require insurance. You have to have it. And then the next question is this consult personal. Sean is, what are you insuring? I mean, if you have assets, you have to insure them. If you don't have assets, you don't have to worry about it. I think that you don't wanna go broke getting insurance. if you don't have any assets. And now if you have a, you know, and there's ways to protect assets, houses, and trusts and all those kinds of things. So, that, that's a more of a personal question. I don't think that you need insurance just to have insurance. My question to you would be, why do you think you need it? If you wanna talk about public, and just keep in mind, this is been broadcasting on the internet. Why do you think you might need insurance? What, what would, what, what are you insuring against? I don't know. Bad advice. . Yeah. Well, I mean, if you're ensuring that, that you might be sued for malpractice. Now there's errors in omissions there's no such thing as being sued for being an idiot or being sued for being wrong. There's being sued for errors in omissions if you don't tell somebody something or you make some sort of mistake but, but I don't think you could be, you're gonna, you're gonna be sued just because you give somebody advice to buy property and they don't buy it or, or whatever it might be. So I think you have to think about, and then the second question is, what assets are you trying to protect? I mean, I don't know what assets I would have in the business. There would be nothing. I just, I feel like people would wanna say like, oh, can I see you know, your proof of business registration and maybe like a declaration page, just so I know that you're like an official person or something. And then I have it, I have such a thing and nobody's ever asked before it. Okay, good. So you have insurance. I do again, again, SBA loan is required. Okay. That was another, that was my next question. And I have assets, I have assets to protect, I have business assets to protect so that were more, more than the loan amount. So for me it wasn't frivolous though. I don't think I would've got it otherwise, but for the loan I had to get it. Okay. Now the second question was, you just mentioned about the, the small business loan. Did you go through like the SBA or is there local resources that you used? Do you use your EIN number to get funded? And then how do you. , like, what are the things that you're asking for Funding? I mean, office I, I did back when the covid money, when they're just throwing money out. And I did for me and my wife's business, both P P P loan and an E I D L loan. I mean, they were just giving money away. And I'm a taxpayer. I've never, you know, I, I've never taken a hand out of me as sort they're getting paid in interest. So that's what their job is, and the money was available. So I applied for both and on the E I D L loan they required insurance because you're, you're, you're ensuring your assets of your business, your ip, your equipment, furniture, things like that. So they required it for that reason. And for me at this point, my life, I have a business, I have assets are worth something that are worth ensuring I don't need it. I practice under, I'm a broker, but I'm affiliated with EXP Realty, so I'm insured as an, as a real estate agent through exp. So I don't really need it for my real estate practice. It's more for my other business is an investor and the other businesses I have. Right. And I do have it. My, my business isn't a corporation, so there's some protection there too, but nothing's guaranteed. And people, literally, for the first time in my career, I was sued last month. Some idiot. You know, we have 88,000 agents in our company, and one of the other agents did something wrong, would sue before a listing agent. He didn't wanna sue his brother, the buyer's agent. And he just googled exp Realty, found my name, and added me to the list of defendants. And I got off. The judge dismissed me right away. But you can be sued for anything. It's not gonna protect you from being sued, but mm-hmm. , you may need to protect yourself. Okay. Okay. Thanks so much. Thank you, Shaun yep. And next hand, is Elizabeth. Elizabeth, what's going on? Yes. So real quick, I've been a nurse for over 10 years and I'm just starting investment. And I took the course for the probate aspect. I'm still working on the referral part, and my question is I'm trying to put my team together, looking for clinics and just to be able to have all that ready before I go to court to go see how the procedure is done in my area. Then I can now go looking for probate lawyers. I'm just wondering if I'm on the right path as to getting all that done first before I start getting leads from all leads. Yeah. No. So couple things. Where, where do you live? What, what county are you in? Uh, New Mexico and it's Sandoval County. What, what's the nearest major city? Is it near Albuquerque? Alba. Okay. So I love the accent by the way. You also like a native new Mexican to me, but I'm originally from Ghana, west Africa. Hi. Hi. You sound like that with a little French in the background there. So one of the common mistakes people make is looking to build the team before they get to work. And I'm gonna tell you there, there, there's no way you'll ever build a team. They'll be effective for you. You need to get the business. You are the team. See, when if I said to you, Elizabeth, well let me a, let me ask you a question. What do you think would be something Sammy would ask you for that you need some of your team to fulfill that would be hard to fulfill? Hmm. Maybe someone trying to sell their. Assets, maybe the garage sale, selling the little things they have. Like a estate sales or ? Yes. Okay. So that might be hard for you. If I said to you, Elizabeth, I'm gonna give you a million dollars. If you could find a great estate sale solution, a estate sales solution, it's now 1220 Pacific time in two hours, could you do it? I will . So you have to get that. You are the team now, like any team, you have team members, teammates, you can draft in new team members. Just like, I don't know if you follow sports, if you're on the Ghana national soccer team they bring players in all the time. But there's one Ghana national soccer team. Yes. But they bring in players all the time. You're Elizabeth real estate team, and you're gonna bring in players and they're gonna come and go and just like in, in football, some make it and some don't. Some come in, they get old, they get rid of 'em. That's your team. But we don't wait to build your team. We business develop all time. Now that's said, You can use the activities of building your team to build your business. What do I mean by that? One person I would love to meet would be an estate salesperson, in your area. If I were you, I would call on the phone and say, Hey, I'm Elizabeth. I'm a real estate investor here in the Albuquerque area, and I know that from time to time I'll find properties that need in the state. So I'd just like to find about, learn about you and how you do business and maybe how we can help each other promote our business. Maybe you, you put a post on your social media about them. Maybe you do what I do and you video and interview and post that, but, so that's part of your business development is meeting these team members. But I would look at that as business development promoting their business because if they got in maybe three new estate sales, they might have one investment opportunity for you that way. right? We're not building it to get business. We're building to help them knowing if they get more business, we get more business. So I would look at, you're building your team not from a requirement. I can't get a deal until I have my team built out cuz it will never be built out the rest of your business career. You are always looking to add new team members, upgrade team members, add new positions, that's part of your business development. That make sense? Okay. Yeah. And, and then another thing is like I have Airbnb and I have a little website as well. And looking at the probate one, I guess looking at the cost, you can have all the leads make an website for you or, right, so my question is, can I have that probate website? Kind of incorporated with what I have already, or it has to be, do I have to also get that before I, I guess I just don't know where to start from. That's my problem. Okay. So Elizabeth, if you called me on the phone and said, yes, hey Bill, I'm Elizabeth. I'm in in Albuquerque. I'm an investor UV property that you might need to sell in Albuquerque. I said, you know, it's funny, you call me up and have one, I don't need a website, do I? No, I don't need your team. Do I? Now, if I said to you, you know, Elizabeth, you sound like a nice lady. Maybe I'd work with you, maybe not. You might, but I'm not making make decision. Call me back next week. You might send me an email afterwards. Hey Bill, nice meeting you. Here's a link to my website. Or maybe your friend on Facebook or Instagram or whatever. Hey Bill, nice talking to you. And, and then, and then you post to your website and I'll see it. So I think that it's nice to have, but you, you, those are accoutrements. Those are extras that you reinvest your money into your business. Don't wait. If you can't go out and get people to talk to you for free or buying data and calling 'em, you can't do one of those two, then it's gonna be very hard for you. There's no amount of money you're ever gonna spend that's gonna generate business for you. Okay? So that's, so the best thing is to start calling and get the leads and start calling and then go from there. Yeah. Okay. Definitely. Thank you. Whatever. Well, whatever it is that you're gonna do to lead generate. Now, one way is to call them, another one is to network with people. I, in my case, pre covid, I went to court every day. Now I can't do that cuz there's a lot less people. So I don't do that. I'm not saying you can't, I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm not Maybe in Albuquerque there's more people in court than there is now or enough to make it make sense for you. Certainly it's good for learning. I would go to court once in a while to learn if I were you. Okay. So I think that, that you need to think out how are you meeting people so you can do business with 'em, you can meet 'em on the phone, you can door knock 'em, you can go to events where they're at. You gotta figure that out. Okay? Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks, Elizabeth. Okay, next up is Daniel Brenner realtor. Daniel, what is up? Hello, how are you? I'm sorry, I'm just kinda getting over getting sick so I sound kind of nasally. But I started launched my probate business like two months ago, and cold calling was going perfectly. I feel like, I like to think that I have a high degree of emotional intelligence and empathy, but I noticed I just, I purchased leads from all the leads and this last batch, I would say 80% of them are widows. And I had a horrible experience calling them. Now granted I only called them the widows this last week but I reached out to a friend who is a widow and I kind of explained what I was doing and he's like, I don't care who you are. If you called me, you know, even like three to even six months after the death of my wife, I don't know anyone could ever get through to me. And well, hold on one second. Hold on one second. Yeah. This person, you talked to you as a widow. Did he file probate? My friend, no. I think he, here's the difference. Yeah. The people you're calling filled out the documents and filed them with court or hired an attorney to file probate. Mm-hmm. . Right. So it might be true for him. And there are people who don't file probate for six months to a year cuz they're so distraught. Mm-hmm. . But that's different than the person who fills out the probate, number one. Mm-hmm. , where do you, where do you sell real estate? North Dallas. I'm in a very affluent area, like the medium price is 5 65. And so even what I've had a issue with is everyone's like, I have my affairs covered now. I just thought about this. The widows I called that were women. Yeah, they, I would say like 50% of them were crying and I just like, kind of just gave me Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. So gimme some numbers. Yeah. How many people do you talk I've, I've only had two batch of leads, so I've only done, I guess, and I got 165 the first time. 150 the second time. And how many did the you talk The second time I talked to about half of them. So a hundred. You talked to 80 or so? Yeah. And at the 80, how many were widows? A lot of them. 40, 60. 50. Like over, over half. Over half. Yeah. And, and, okay. 50. And in the 50, they're all crying. A lot of them, it just went straight to like, like left a voicemail. That's different. Yeah. But who'd you talk to? How many did you actually talk to in the teens? Do you track this? I like I mark, if this is someone I shouldn't even send a letter to, this is someone I should send a letter to. So I, I have like my own little, okay. So I, I did a piece on this call a few weeks, a few months ago on phone prospecting, most important thing, tracking your numbers. Mm-hmm. . So I asked you a couple specific questions. How many people you talk to. Doesn't matter how many you dial, you can dial 10,000. The question is how many you talk to per hour, right. Number one. Number two, I'm trying to get down to, well, how many widows did you talk to that were crying? Well, the females, I just realized this, the females were more open for me calling. They were emotion. All of them were emotional. The men were the ones that. The male widows who lost their wife. They were the only ones. Now I just, I just thought of this as I'm talking to you publicly. It was the men who definitely, like one of them said they're gonna take their attorney. Hold on, hold on here. I, no, so you, you keep going back to whole story. Yeah. I'm trying to be, this is a business now. I, I, I don't wanna shortchange you if you need some therapeutic help or some psychological, and you might, maybe this is affecting you negatively and I'm, I'm not discounting that. It might be real for you. My job here is just the business side, so forgive me. That's what I'm doing for the call. Yeah, but what, but I'm trying to get down is, well, how many people, you said everybody was crying on the phone and we get down to, but you talked to that many and other ones you talked to. Well, some are men, some are women. And I think that you're telling yourself something that's different than your actual experience. So I would get down to how many people you actually talked to of all those, of those, how many were actually crying because I can't believe it was more than two. I've not talked to more than two in my entire career. That cried. Now that said, maybe I'm not as sensitive as you are. Maybe I'm not as predisposed to encourage 'em going the path as you are. I'm though on the phone when I talk to customers, I think I'm pretty sensitive. Mm-hmm. , I've been doing this for a while, but, but if you believe you're all going to be a crying s sniffling ball of mess when you call them all, you're more likely to experience that than I am because I figured they filed a probate. They need some help. I'm here to help 'em. I'm not here to take from them, not here to cheat them. I'm not here to rip 'em off. I'm here because if they listen to their agent, they're gonna lose, they're gonna lose money, time, effort, and energy. And I'm here to help them. And if they don't wanna talk to me, they're ready. That's fine. I can respect that. But I think you really need to break down your numbers cuz I've, I've tried to pining you down a few times here and I don't wanna beat you up over it. You're good. I wanna make to you the point clear that your language is different than the numbers you're actually getting. And I think you're, you're creating a stir in your head now. You're anticipating looking for a situation. Cuz in my experience, unless North Dallas has some unique monopoly on crying widows. Widows, which I don't think is true. I've been to North Dallas numerous times in my life, it doesn't seem that different than the rest of America. There's, I also, I know, I mean, I also know that holidays are a weird time. You know, there's, I think that's another part. You're, I think you're putting the story together. Objecting. Yeah. I don't think that's true. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. I mean, you can say a lot of people are off of work. They have, they're, they're, they're more time to deal with things. I don't know. I don't know. That's true. It's not been my experience. But I think you're looking for a story to tell yourself. And I would, I would say to you, urge your do the following. For everybody who makes phone calls, you need to count your contacts per hour. So what I do is I just, I'm old school. I have a pad of paper. I put the date and the time of the, of the hour, nine o'clock, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock. And a little stick man, I put for each contact, I don't count dials, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, count the contacts and appointment set. That's all that really matters. Perfect. And by the way, just again to look at your language, I'm not here to put you down. I just wanted for you to draw attention to how you're using your language to create obstacles. Where I live in my neighborhood, you can't buy a house and tear it down for less than 1.3 million. Mm-hmm. . So affluence is relative. It's also state of mind. Okay. And if you keep telling yourself it's affluent to me, it's like you're saying, well, it's a little outta reach for me, but I'm reaching for it. Well, maybe me is, maybe it's not. It is. If you think it is. Okay. I'm very open for feedback. I'm not like sensitive. I just want to, I, I'm developing my image in the community, so I just wanna make sure I start off right. That's why I'm just opening up dialogue about it. I, yeah, I guess the only objection, and I think that they address this in Probate Mastery, I probably need to go over objections again, but I just get a lot of, everything is settled. We have all affairs. How do you handle that Objection again. Sure. So, again, and this is, I've covered before, but I, it's good to redo this from time to time. So the first thing I would say is all objections at the core are the same. Alright? Right. If you go back to the fundamentals of communication, all communication is one of two things. It's either expression of love or cry for help. Mm-hmm. so is an expression of love. No, it's a cry for help. It's a subtle cry. You gotta hear it. That when people say, I'm good. That's a standard objection in every sales experience you'll ever have. I, before I was in probate, I did expired listings and people would say, oh yeah, we're gonna re-list the same agent. That was a standard response. That's a standard common objection you would get. If you talk to 40 people a day, you'd get five of those, 10 of those. If you talk to 40 probate people a day, you're gonna get 20 raw goods and 10 we're doing it on our owns and whatever. There's a, there's a variety you're gonna get of your objections, what I call stand objections. All objections we handle with three steps. Number one, we never argue with them, we repeat their objection. So if we're role playing, I say, Daniel Bill, gross and estate broker specialist helping probate film was like, here's, I was calling to see how it can be of assistance. And you said to me, oh Bill, thanks for calling. I'm all good. I'd repeat that and say, oh, you're all good. Number step two. Make your answers sound okay with me. I'm not arguing with you, I'm not putting you down. I'm just affirming that's what you said. The biggest complaint people have with salespeople is no one listens to us. So if I said to you, Daniel, I'm all gross, blah, blah, blah, and you said, I'm all good, I'd say, okay, you're all good. That's great. Then third is what we call the objection handler, which is another question designed to open the conversation because think about it this way, Daniel. Isn't it true that every single probate family in North Dallas, it's fine if you never make your phone calls. I mean, if you disappeared from the world tomorrow, if aliens snatched you, or God forbid you died, or you won the lottery and never made these phone calls, they're gonna live without you, right? You're calling to make it better. Your job is to explain to them how you're making it better. Selling doesn't telling sons asking questions, you have to ask a question. That's fantastic. I know this. There's a property here in whatever Red Bluff. I'm curious, you guys plan on selling the property or keeping us a rental? You, you ask whatever you can with the goal of opening up a dialogue to see you're looking for their problems or where you can offer a solution. Perfect. So you have to be able to ask that next question. Just keep walking through that. There was a, there was a exercise I've done in the past many times I recommend, it's called the question game. It's where you ask your partner a question, they repeat, affirm and ask a question back. It's like ping pong. Then it comes back to you and then you, you answer you know, repeat affirm and ask a question, and then they repeat. You go back and forth asking questions. And so you get to a point where you have the person who ask the question has control of the conversation. Your goal is to develop a conversation to find how you can help them. That's sales. Everybody has stack stocky answers. Sellers don't get together and practice their. Questions, we need to practice our response. So that's why you role play with people or the more calling you do you, the better you'll get at it. Perfect. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Fantastic, Daniel. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here. Thank you. So, Katt put in a chat box. By the way, if you guys should not miss this. She put a link to a post she put on how to get data, and there's ways you get data for free. I would definitely check in the Zoom chat in the meeting, chat, take a look at her post. And I, and I read that yesterday. That was really good stuff. Okay, who else has a question? Challenge, problem, victory, you wanna share? Defeat. You wanna share? I'll just share with you, I had this discussion with, with Chad yesterday, and we're talking about, he's kind of re, you know, re-looking his whole program and how do we, you know, how, rather than just add or subtract, you know, kind of redesigning from the top, what should it look like to make sure all the pieces fit. We talked about where this call fit. And I said to Chad, I was coming as a participant, and then he had some personal issues that took him away from it. And he asked me to step in as a temp, as a, at the time temporary host. And I said yes. And I told him at the time, and I re repeated him yesterday. The reason is I need this now. I mean, I think I've grossed, I know I've grossed over $300,000, over 350 each of the last three years of commissions on top of other revenue through my businesses. And I'm off to a great start this year. I'm not starving. I'm making good money more than most. I'm the top 1% of my company. I'm top, top 1% of the business, I'm sure. But I need this every week. I need to be challenged. I need to be pushed, I need to be encouraged. I need to see people pushing through. I think you do too. And, and part of what we need is to interact. So I would just urge you all, bring something of value here every week of some sort. Bring in a victory. Bring a tool you're using, bring something that you're doing that's helping, that can help other people. Because together, we're gonna go a lot further than any of us are going to individually. Okay. There you go. Shari Caper is hands up. Let's get you in here. What's going on? Hey, how's it going, bill? Oh, great. So I can tell you I have two probate leads that came through my website. I have a substantial amount of information about probate on my main page and I also have that I'm a probate specialist and my signature when I send out emails. And I think I might, I have like books that I passed. I'll talk to lawyers. So it's so much that we could do to generate probate leads. And then I was thinking I was about to put in a chat, maybe hang out with the funeral homes, but I'm a have to go lucky person and I don't wanna be all depressed. But I did think of ways of approaching funeral directors. And, and give them my call to establish a rapport with them. So I just think outside, I'm like a, I told you this before, I'm like an outside of the box thinking type person. So for me, with probate, even on LinkedIn, I was putting, if you go to my LinkedIn, well I, I took it off, put something else. But needless to say, at one time for a long period period, I had that, I was a probate specialist on my LinkedIn page and I was able to get a lead that I'm still working with. Both of the parents has died, so I'm just giving him a space. But he approached me or reached out to me to ask me information about probate. So I sent him the probate process cause I have like this chart I sent him the probate process. I sent him like a list of different vendors and abolishes at his court right now. Sure. So you, what you say real estate. What did you say? I'm sorry? Where do you sell real estate? I'm out in Atlanta, Georgia. Outskirts powder Springs. Okay. Is that north or south of Atlanta? West. I'm in Westco. Okay. I have a friend who's in, I have a team member who's in Athens going the other way, going east. Oh yes. So what you're saying is you got business by putting on your website, you got some leads mm-hmm. during your LinkedIn mm-hmm. in your signature. Right. You imagine if you did more than that, might more people, like if you posted more social media on LinkedIn, might more people see your profile. Right. If you put more content on your webpage and post it in social media, I don't know where you're active on Instagram or Facebook or, I'm like all over the place. And even on Instagram for a long period of time, I had probate specialists on there as well. And I probably start doing, I'm like a TikTok or, so I'll probably start uploading more videos on TikTok, discussing the probate process. So it's just really getting out there. One thing I do know, it's not overnight process. It's a process. It's not gonna happen overnight. Right. So it's, you really have to put the time in and like you were saying, but you, you have to put the time in because probate leads, just from the, from what I've experienced, it's, it takes a while. Well, but, and they watching when you don't think you're watching, they're all actually watching what you're putting up, even though they may not respond. Probate from my, my thing is probate leads or potential people that need a probate specialist, they're watching your content even though they may not respond to what you have. They are watching because the guy, the person that I'm telling you about from LinkedIn, I had been posting stuff about six months and he actually told me he had been watching a content that I put up. So what did you put 10 times the content? What do you think might happen? I'll get 10 times the visibility and 10 times opportunities of getting more probate listenings, and 10 times more money. But look at that smile . Look at that smile. Woo. That was worth, that was worth the whole phone call. . Well, that's all of us. I think, you know, that's why I, I said Grant Qu knows my coach. Cuz I think at the end of the day, once you find a process, now some people might say, well, that's a lot of work. Yeah, it's a lot of work. Yeah. , just cut out the rest and do that. I'm sure if I followed you around all day long, you're doing a lot of stuff than you shouldn't do. You could put more time on that and, and also repurpose content. You have, you have a website. You could take one little section of your website every day and, and, and you could post it in text format. You could read it and do a video. There's a lot of different ways you repurposed that content. See, now you have me thinking about doing a probate video today. I'll do a video in a minute. So I made you a Tic-tac video today on probate. That's what I made do. I do a YouTube short every day, and we're posting at least one YouTube med or long form every single day. A lot. I heard Gary Vanerchuck say, smother your prospects with your content. Right. And then I also, my CM is Lions Desk, so I was able to put my content and send out emails and videos on online with lioness. So to me, lions Desk is the best c r m because you could put 'em in categories you could do videos. Lion Desk allows you to make calls off of line's, desk platform. So all of those things work. It's just that it's time consuming because, you know, as you know, bill, my hands in all my hand is in d commercial. I mean, you know, I'm just in different things. But I, I will make the time to put more more into probate again, especially with me getting these leads that just came across my desk. Like I literally just got like a couple of days ago. Good. Keep on Sherry. Thanks for sharing with us. You're welcome. Okay, and next hand up is Eric. Eric, what's going with you? Bill, how are you? This fine day. Doing great. Sorry, I'm driving right now, so I'm gonna try to focus between the screen and the road. Where are you headed to the gym right now? Actually headed to the gym. So I'm up here in Michigan. I've been investing full-time for 17 years and been a pretty active probate buyer for the last 12. And I've noticed for like the last three years it's been getting very saturated, a little bit tougher to be the value add component when contacting probates. And when I was running my numbers for 2022, it occurred to me how many properties were on my probate list that were when we did like a list stacking evaluation. They also came up as vacant. Now, three years ago, we began to realize that many of the properties that we were finding while driving for dollars were also on our probates list. So we began to split test reaching out to people as just a vacant property. Trying to buy it versus as the, from the probate aspect of, Hey, we can help, we have a team of resourceful people that you know, that can help with this process. I closed four probate deals that were on our probate list versus 16 that were also probates, but on a vacant list. And I just cannot figure out what the dynamic, what, what's the difference in the dynamic between it just seemed like when we reached out and tried to provide value, we got this, we got all the common responses, our attorneys taking care of it, the property's not for sale, we're keeping it right. And I, I feel that we're really, really good at follow ups, but it seemed like when we reached, when we reach out to people asking to purchase, you know, their vacant property, there was no barrier there, like there was with probate. So I'm trying to figure out like, what is that dynamic of. You know, I'm, I'm sure it's a self-limiting belief, although I wanna believe it's humanity that's just really guarded when somebody tries to offer them help. It's gotta be too good to be true. Shut 'em down. But I just thought that was really interesting. I ran my numbers for last year and although they were on my probate list, we closed them a lot easier because we reached out to as a bacon property. And I'm trying to find some clarity with that because I'd love to help more people with their probate issues because it's really painful seeing people get raped over the coals by attorneys fighting with their families, letting a property sit for longer than it needs to because they're overwhelmed trying to clear out the contents. But it seems like once we try to mention that we get shut down. When you contact the vacant properties that you sold as probates, were they already in probate? You just approached them as vacant or Correct. Oh, okay. Cause I got hundred percent of the time, I have lot of us who invest, who, who approach vacant properties and then discover it. It needs to be a probate down the road. That's a different animal Yes. Than no. These are already open in probate. Well, I think you're making, I, I think based on your data in your market, you should first approach 'em as vacant properties and your marketing should be as vacant properties. I would, the fact that they're in probate, you know, you may know that and be on lookout for that and offer your assistance as helping. But what you're telling us is to those people, their problem of a vacant home is bigger than the problem of a probate. Okay. Absolutely correct Amy, and I appreciate how big a problem the probate is and, and frankly, I think the probate's a bigger problem. It's no problem to open and file a probate. That's the easy part, you know? Correct. People say, oh yeah, I, I can download the forms and fill them out and send 'em in. Oh, that's easy. It's getting the court to accept that. Yeah. And appoint you, and then along the way to verify the steps along the way, and at the end to get the counting. Right. That's all the hard part is that all the, you know, machinations, it's kind of like, it's easy to get your real estate license compared to making money as a real estate investor or a real estate agent. So people's perceptions may be way off. They might know they have a problem and you're calling 'em before they realize it. So from an emotionless, you know, just make money and move on to the next deal. You know, like, as far as I'm concerned, whether it's a probate or a vacant deal, it's same stuff. Different address. Yeah. The frustrating part to me is I'm, I'm human. Like, I, I do care. I wanna help. And I feel like, you know, I've, I've got the website, I've got the team, I've got the resources, I've got the vendors. I feel like I've spent so much time. And that's where the scalability actually comes in, is being able to scale the probate side of the business. But it's just been really tough getting traction there. Now if I just take off my hat and I'm like, Hey, same stuff, different address, I don't care. It's all profit. I don't care if it's, you know, vacant, pre foreclosure, whatever, then it's just a numbers game at that point. But again, I, I would really like to scale. I would, I actually visualize a storefront for my probate company, but I'm just not getting the traction that I want there. And when it comes to Bacons, we simply, we find a list driving for dollars. We skip trace, we text, we don't have a website. We don't have this crazy trading. It's very emotionless and very simple, but it's not scalable either. So again, I'm just trying to figure out like what is the missing link that, are we pressing too hard? Is our sequence you know, are we setting the wrong expectation? Where, where are we going wrong? You know, in, in reaching out to, to people trying to offer assistance in where they're overwhelmed at. No. I have a question for you and Eric. Okay. So this, this list for the vacant, how, how long is it in comparison to your list that you're getting for probate? So, prob, probates are pulled weekly and generally contacted. So we send the letter out the very next day of receiving the probate records, and then we call them within seven days. And when it comes to the, if we drive for a list, we're generally collecting more addresses by driving for dollars, then we are by pulling lists. We, I have, we have better luck with lists that we're able to drive and find and build ourselves than we do with ones that we're able to go to Prop Stream or list source and buy 'em directly from there. So it's, it's still within the first. You know, we're contacting them immediately. How long has the property been sitting vacant? That, that's a, you know, that's a wild card. Many times we don't know that. Right. But as far as the probate, we're contacting them within 10 days. Great question though. Yeah. Look obviously you're finding a, I mean, there's a scientific answer to it. We need to figure out, and, and it probably lies in the fact that you drive by a property, you by its physical nature, you know, they need help and they need to do something with it. Yes. Whereas probates, many cases, that's not the case. They either, somebody's living there and they're fine keeping it, spouses living there, she's fine keeping it, they're gonna sell it, but they think they have plenty of time to deal with it. They think they have money coming in where they could property more often. That's not it. You're saying? It's the. You're getting a, a subset of vacant properties, but that might be the subset. They're easier to work with and they're more anxious to work with. Look, there's, there's a certain, there's a certain percentage of population that wants to do things on their own. And so when you call them up, they say they don't need you, and they, they're gonna do it on their own. They're gonna hire their own attorney, they're gonna get their own realtor, they're gonna sell the property on their own. And it sounds like those people are self-selecting out by probate when you call them there if you're calling the same people. But I, I, I don't, I don't, I still hear what the problem is. It sounds to me the solution's always talking to more people. Correct. I would agree. If you're calling 'em as a vacant and they happen to be a probate, my guess is somewhere along the line, the, the questions of probate come up and you handle them well enough that it looks like a vacant property to you. That happens to be a probate, but that's really what probate should be. It doesn't have to be a whole big drama. I would agree. Yeah. Right. I, I don't know what the problem is. I, I think everybody should, if you know the property's vacant approach it both ways and until get people, I don't think there's anything wrong with, I call it two bites of the same apple. You're, you're calling it as a vacant property. You're calling it as a probate. And does it matter which one works? I don't think you should care. Okay. Yeah. I, I partner. So the, the, the, the emotionless business guy just says, yeah, same stuff, different address. Who cares what the presets of the lead are? Just close the deal and get it done. But I, again, I would, the human side of me something, I, I wouldn't go there with it. I would just say they, apparently, when you call vacant, somewhere along the line, they have to say to you, it's a probate. Right? They have to say, it was my father's property and I filed probate. And you're like, okay, that's fine. Like, they're pretty nonchalant. They're pretty nonchalant about it actually. It, it, I think you kinda hit it right on the head where the vacant property poses a bigger. Problem for them than the probation does, or at least in their perceptions at that and at that time. Correct. Yeah, because the problem probate manipulator, and most of them are further enough into probate where they really wouldn't need my services. You know, the properties are largely cleaned out. You know, they're ready to sell the property at the time of contact. In, in, in most instances, I, I, I wanna say it was like 10, either 10 or 12 of the instances, the probate was several years old and the property was literally just sitting there. They chose to do nothing about the situation. I see that all the time. Biggest mistake people make in probate, it's so frustrating. , they're, they wanna wait until all that's done and, and it, and then they wanna file the probate. It's like, because, and, and, and this is part of the, the the seduction of the real estate industry. They think they can just clean up the house and, and fix it up and sell it and get more money. And they don't, unlike a business person, they're not counting the carry cost and even the opportunity cost of carrying cost, of course rates are low today, but you can pay the money in the bank and you don't lose the money. You have to pay for insurance. You're paying property taxes either way. And then you also run the risk of some squad of breaking in the property. I've had people, I had one last week where, you know, two weeks ago, she's fine and she's taking her time. And last week she called me in tears cuz these squatters came in her house and she can't get 'em out. Now, now she's got a major problem. So I think that that You know, you, I wouldn't worry about it. And I And you keep going to to not caring emotionally. No. I think you c should care emotionally. I care. I do. I do care. I know you do, but I'm just saying, I don't think it's heartless to not talk about a problem until it comes up. And my guess is when it comes up, you handle the problem, whatever it is. You know, my guess is if you're handling a vacant property, at some point you look at the attorney, you look at the case, you look at the paperwork, you figure out, either they know what they're doing or they don't. If they don't, you're gonna help them find a different attorney or resolve the problem and, and move on. I, I don't think that's, I think it's great to contact them both ways. I think that's smart marketing. So I, I just, I wanna throw this last tidbit out there is that I had a property that I've been chasing down for four years that's vacant part of an estate, and I've been in communication with the seller and he was like, Eric, I don't mind you contacting me, but I have no intentions of selling my property. This has been going on for four years. Mm-hmm. , he contacted me three days before Christmas, and I was so shocked to receive a call from him. Right. And during that conversation, he said, Eric, the reason why I didn't care about selling this property for the last several. As my equity went up every single year and I, I don't care whether it was rented, I don't care if it was getting dilapidated, right. All I had to do was sit back and my property went up X amount of percent every year. Sure. Now the market's stagnating a little bit. Yeah. Now it's a problem to me and I'm like, it was a two by four to the head moment that that's what I'm gonna start telling sellers. In the past five years, you didn't have to do nothing, sit back and watch your equity grow now. No. Actually the last five years you got paid to watch to not do anything. Now it cost you money. Every month is costing you money. Proje and I would have, projections are showing according to who was I saw last week, case Schiller. They're expecting prices go down next year, 10 to 15%. So the house is worth 40,000. It's gonna go down $40,000. How much of that 40,000 do you wanna burn? Sure, sure. All of it. Keep in front of the year. Half of it, let's get it sold by six months. And, and what that triggered me to do is I remember two of the deals that I had bought long ago back in the foreclosure days when I started doing probates very heavily. I remember those people telling me their biggest regret was not selling when the market was up and waiting until everything crashed. So I reached out to them, asked 'em if they would reignite a testimonial for me. So I can put that out there and let people know, like, now is your chance to capture that equity. Every, every week or month that you wait into 23 and beyond is gonna be a regret for you. So I know you've probably got other people waiting to, well let, I just wanna wrap up and say that once you've talked to somebody, you should call them back every 90 days. Forever. A no is just a no for today. Does eventually everybody sells a house. Every, there aren't too many houses in America have, have not been sold in the last a hundred years. I'm not sure what your career timeline is. Maybe it's 20 or 30, but 99% of houses you talk to are gonna be sold at some point. Just cause they say no today. Doesn't mean it won't be no, won't be yes. In three months, six months or four years. Okay. Beautiful. Beautiful. Good. Eric, thank you so much for your time. And what part of Michigan are you in again? I'm just north of Detroit and McComb and Oakland County. And I think also it might be a, a function of you being in a more le a less competitive prob market maybe than Atlanta Metro, LA Metro, I imagine. Sure. Detroit, this city is different than suburban areas, so that's also part of it, I think as well. I appreciate you, bill. Thank you so much. Yes, thanks man. Thanks so much. Okay, let's try to get in. I got two more, Joyce and then Roger. You guys have been waiting patiently. Joyce, what's up? You unmuted here. Joyce, you're so muted. I have a client who doesn't have the money to clear out the house. Mm-hmm. to sell it. , and I know that you, you talked about probate cash. Mm-hmm. , and I was wondering how do I go about getting them? So in general you can borrow money. Orange County, generally about $10,000 is the minimum. And use that for whatever they want. Legal fees, move out, fees, cleanup fees, attorneys for renter fees. And there's companies offered service. Chad's interviewed a couple on this channel. I have my own company. I broker it out cuz what I do, I found was the company, none. The companies were good enough. Service for my service. So basically I have an intake forum and I route it to the various companies to get them to pre-approve a file and then bring it back to my customer when it's pre-approved by one of the companies. So you can just reach out to any of them, or Joyce if you want to offline, send me an email or text and I'll be more glad to have an intake form and just gimme the information and we'll pre-approve it. And if we can get them money we'll get to 'em within a couple days. Great. I will do that. Thank you. Thanks. Re and last we'll get last, but certainly not least. And last, but not Lisa Raja Lei. What's up? Well, good afternoon everybody. I was gonna respond to Eric's Concerns of not getting an answer or getting short answers to his questions about the property and he goes back and tries to get talk about the property. I think that what I have found, whenever I find those kind of invisible blocks to talk about the property I've found that start talking about the family or asking questions about the family and the processes that that the family's going through. In, in doing that, connecting with the co, with the, with the executor and finding out what who else is involved in the, in the, in the estate and, and finding finding answers to do that net, that kind of breaks up the ice and you come back and, and work into working into the the challenges that they're, that they're facing right now, or if, if they're not, or if they will. But I find that trying to develop a connection to the executor and the family and any of the challenges that he may have in working and then backing up and then coming back into the property at a, at a later time in a different conversation. That's what works for me. That's the only thing I had to say on, on Eric's challenge of not, of getting the big block of I'm not gonna talk to you about this today. That's, that's what I've found. It works when you start talking about the family, sometimes I'll start talking about, and to the other side of something somebody mentioned was during the holidays is really a tough time to talk to people about that. When somebody starts just getting muddled up, there's somebody missing at Christmas, there's somebody not at the Thanksgiving table that that has been in the past year or so. It's really a tough time and coming back and stepping back and trying to find a connection and a, and consolation in in their in their bereavement sometimes works for me. Well, good. Hey, look, I, I, I don't disagree with anything you said, Roger. I just think sometimes we start creating stories that we put on our prospects before they even express 'em. And I think, I think, you know, you know, the first phone call I had, the first call I had today, that was the case. It, it certainly is true. Some people are most upset when we call them, and we have to be sensitive to that and appropriate. But I, I would say, and, and that's, you know, we're on a call with, with, you know, 50 people, most of whom have never called anybody, and most of 'em aren't gonna make the phone calls because they're scared and their fear is unfounded because the vast majority of people are emotionally ready to talk about probate because they've filed probate. It's true, some aren't. And Roger, you being skilled, you're attentive to that and deal with it. And I think we all are human beings and we had to pay attention to it. My concern is we can make that seem more common than it is, and then use that as excuse not to be phone calls and then not give people good service, which at the end of the day harms them as much as as being insensitive. So, I don't disagree with you, but again, I, for anybody on the call, I would say I don't think it's that common. I've not had two people in my last four years of doing this cry on the phone about the deceive the opposite. Many times they, they can't stand the person who passed, but they're cleaning up the mess. And, and that's much more common for me than people crying about it. But again, I think it's gonna vary based on your market. Just don't, again, I don't disagree with you, Roger. I just say don't create problem where there isn't one or assume there's a problem where there isn't one. Okay. Great. Hey Roger, thank you Trump in it. Appreciate it. And I think for the rest of us, I think that's, we're gonna wrap it up. Lemme share a couple free resources with you before we wrap up. Probate mastery com is the website and Asche Cort is our head coach. And on there, our key to the whole kingdom, the Probate Mastery program is we can become a certified probate expert. The earn course is more advanced for getting referrals from attorneys. If you go to the top. Also, there's the podcast. That's what this is. Here's the home and the different episodes and the playlist and so on. Referral directory, make sure you're in the FRI directory. Another free service is the Estate Professionals Mastermind Group in Facebook, we have 6,000 members there and Kat. our second favorite person on the team besides me, after me is on here and put some great content in here, definitely worth paying attention to. And today she talked about the , you're on the call, so you should repost here, perhaps that Dana Post, she talked about in the chat box. And then for those who are graduates, there's the Mastery Alumni 1600 members. I tend to go there because I'm a, I'm a, I'm an alumni of the program and it tends to be a little more higher level discussions for people already in the program and picking up on it and taking advantage of the opportunities there. So those are some free resources that are available to you. Uh, We do this call every Tuesday, 12 noon Pacific,3:
00 PM Eastern Time. I'm Bill Gross. It's been a pleasure working with you. We do record this. It's on the probate mastery.com website and hope to see you here next week as well. Thanks for everybody who's on the call today. I really appreciate your help.